Month: December 2017

The Adventure Continues: Part 4: Does this ever end?

So we left with questions about support payments and shares of the 401K account.  The attorney told us that the judge would likely insist that I get support. He was adamant that in a long-term marriage, and especially since I am presently unemployed, the judge would be unlikely to allow any other option.

He also informed us that our legal plan, the cost of which was deducted weekly from the ex’s paycheck, covered all kinds of things,  but not divorce costs.  (So you may be wondering, as I was, why he has been paying for it all this time.) To retain him would cost about $2000 or more although we had already completed and filed the paperwork.  So, there was that….

Again the ride home was long and quiet, even though the drive was only about 10 minutes.  We felt dejected and afraid that we would not be able to complete it at all.  How would we afford to pay that fee?  How would we manage all of this?

Remember this?

“Not one to be held down for long, I started working on a contingency plan. If you asked friends who know me well, you’d discover that one of my catchphrases is, “I’ll figure something out!”. So I started my figuring process.”

I commenced the figuring process once again.  I searched and finally discovered a ProSe divorce service who said they could prepare the QDRO for a reasonable price.  We managed to see the helper quickly since she was going to be there the next day for a few hours.  As we headed there we weren’t sure what would happen, since this process had been full of surprises, but we packed our hopes into the truck and held our breath.

We sat in the lobby of a converted house for a few minutes and then were greeted by Lovette, the woman who we were to meet with.  Lovette told us she had been doing pro-se divorces for 20 years and had inherited the business from her mother, who also spent many years doing it.  She told us she has never had a QDRO rejected so we feel pretty confident about this.  Well, we do NOW.  But then?  Another story… so here goes!

We came into her office and gave her our gadzillions of pages of forms for the divorce along with telling her our story.  She looked them over and talked about the process, and then —

We mentioned the A and B issue, with me being the petitioner and the ex being the respondent.  She looked at the original filing, which I completed while not living in the state of Wisconsin.  And she gave us a shocker!  She said that the filing should have been blocked because I can’t file a court action in a state I don’t live in.  She said she would check but that she thought that I had to be living in the state at the time of the filing, and that we would have to file again with him being the petitioner.  I looked at the form, and while it asked if I had lived in the state in the last 6 months and the county in the last month, it didn’t say “If you answer no to any of the above questions, you may not file at this time” or anything of that sort.  I was puzzled.  Why would it not warn me on the form?  Or at the very least, why would no one at the courthouse have rejected the petition?

We talked about possible alternative plans, and left feeling discouraged and confused, fearful that we would have to dismiss the current case if it was invalid, then wait a month to file again, followed by the requisite waiting period in Wisconsin of at least 120 days before the action could be completed.  This was not what we wanted.

We went home unsure and discouraged but continued to plan as if we could still follow through on the date we had been given.  The next day she called to let us know she had checked and we could go ahead.  The petition was valid because one of us did live in Wisconsin and in Milwaukee county at the time of filing.  What a relief!

And that is the story to date.  We wait until January 31st when we once again appear at the courthouse, this time with an actual court date.  Or, at least, I sure HOPE so!

The Adventure Continues: Part 3 (Money matters)

I left you with us hanging our heads in shame after being scolded by the wicked witch of the 7th floor  of the Milwaukee County courthouse.

Not one to be held down for long, I started working on a contingency plan. If you asked friends who know me well, you’d discover that one of my catchphrases is, “I’ll figure something out!”. So I started my figuring process.

My first thought was that company that the ex works for offers a legal plan, for which payment is deducted from each paycheck. Surely this should be a good resource for us to consult!  We searched and found one of the plan lawyers with an office nearby, and called to set an appointment. We offered to drop off our materials so they had them before the appointment, and the receptionist who answered the phone concurred with that idea, so we headed over to drop off our paperwork and to set a time to meet with the attorney.  The receptionist was setting the appointment,  but then allowed us to speak with the attorney briefly.

We offered him our mess of paperwork, which he didn’t want to deal with, and I can’t blame him for that. However he was able to look up our case. Remember our old friend CCAP?  Yup, this was when I remembered our old friend CCAP too.  He gave us some details about our case and then glanced through some of the paperwork.

A familiar subject arose: maintenance, or the lack of a request thereof…  Who knew so many people would want me to ask for money I don’t want. 

I was surprised by the push to ask for maintenance.  I’d always gotten the impression that it was hard to get, and that you had to fight to get it if you wanted it, unless the spouse was very wealthy and you had never worked or gotten an education because of the marriage. (Think traditional marital roles, or a “trophy wife” situation, for examples.)

TIP: you may be eligible for maintenance even if you think you aren’t.  If you need it, even temporarily, they will encourage you to take it. If you don’t want it, they might try to get you to take it anyhow.  

I never wanted to ask for it,  even if I had thought i was eligible for it, because it didn’t seem fair or right to me.  My ex isn’t some big corporate CEO or anything; he works in a warehouse and he struggles just to get by.  He works very hard doing 12 hours days and often taking overtime, all for a low rate of pay; to ask for a share of that seems unjustified.   I’m perfectly capable of working even though at present I’m unemployed; I am well-educated and competent, and I’m trying to be fair.  To me that didn’t seem fair at all, and still doesn’t.  I’m a grown adult woman, and I should be able to take care of myself.

On a somewhat amusing side note:  my ex asked me if he was a creep for having mixed feelings about giving me maintenance money.  He said he knew I did need it, but it would make it hard for him to make it if he had to give me half his already rather meager paycheck.  And I felt like a creep because they might try to force the matter and make me take the money.  How damn civil is that?  

Yes, a share of the retirement plan makes sense, because my work was usually part-time or contract work because I had to be available to deal with our children’s schooling issues, and later, to deal with caring for and managing the affairs of my parent’s as they aged and developed dementia.  If i had not been there to take care of those things, I would have been able to work full-time and build up my own retirement funds, but as it was, I have no retirement funds of my own and my social security will be very lowbecause of my work history (that is, if  those of my generation even get back the money we paid in, given current policies and plans).

I also struggled quite a bit with the idea of taking my share of this fund, because I felt that I had not earned the money.   Over time I came to see that had I not been married,  and fulfilling the role as the primary caretaker of our children, as well as the person who managed (however poorly) the household needs, and later as the caretaker of my aging parents, I would have earned my own retirement income.  It’s still uncomfortable for me. I have to keep reminding myself that the things I did within the marriage were important and worth compensation.  If payment had been made for what I did as the primary caretaker, it would likely have come up to more than what he earned.

Although as a housekeeper,  I’m sure I’d have been fired, here are some of the things I personally did:  I managed the bills (albeit, poorly, as there was never enough income to cover them); I attended a million and one school meetings for my children who had some special needs; I took the kids to appointments such as the doctor and dentist;  I checked and helped with homework (that, right there, is worth about a million dollars when you have kids with neurological issues, ADHD, etc.); I drove the kids to classes, to school, home from school as needed; I searched for options in schooling; I researched far and wide looking for help for them; I searched for places to live and set up appointments to view them; I filled out applications for rentals; I had to be available all the time if someone got sick at school and needed to be picked up because his job would not allow it for him; I took them Christmas shopping, clothes shopping; I arranged for birthday parties; I completed all family paperwork including his, because … remember about him and paperwork?; I set appointments for him as well as the kids and acted as a personal assistant to the whole family.  This is only a small fraction of my duties over the years, and I did still manage to get a college education, including a Master’s degree, and I did work much of the time on at least a part-time basis.  As a result of my education, I have student loan debt I’m not asking him to cover, and I have less consistent work history which has made it difficult for me in my current employment situation.

Another note for those who might criticize me for getting an education while he did not – I supported him in getting an education but he had trouble with the process, and short of doing the work for him to hand in, I did all I could to help him with it.  In fact, at times I came close doing his work for him.  I’m pretty good at the whole higher education thing, whereas he is not.  He is a very bright man and has great ideas and creativity but his neurological issues are different from mine, and made it harder for him to persist in school.  He chose to leave school before getting a degree, and to this day I truly wish he had continued so that he could work in a job that is fulfilling for him instead of one that he dreads many days.

So you spouses who set aside or minimize your careers to be the caretaker, the homemaker, the household manager, remember this: what you do in the marriage is worthwhile!  You made a sacrifice to take that role, and you should be compensated if the marriage is dissolved, because you helped your spouse to be able to develop their career, to keep their job, and to set aside savings for retirement.

TIP: This is a common problem for women in long-term relationships.  If your job didn’t take precedence, you may have little or no savings for retirement.  You are legally entitled to a share of retirement funds that have been earned and set aside during the course of the marriage, however you will have to complete a QDRO,  (or Qualified Domestic Relations Order).  Here is a link to some information about this:   More QDRO information

TO BE CONTINUED – since this is getting a bit lengthy!

Day 2: The Adventure Continues.

Bright and early the next morning we were on our way back to the courthouse, optimistic about having help to check our paperwork, and anxious to complete our court business and get on with other tasks. After all, there was a storage unit waiting to be sorted, business to be concluded, friends to visit.

We arrived early and soon were meeting with our volunteer, Aaron.

Here I think it’s time for a bit of background.

This is an amicable divorce. There is no animosity, not much anger, just a desire to resolve things without any fighting or petty behavior.

We want to part as good friends who will always be friends, with mutual respect. After 37 years of marriage we know each other very well.

Not all divorces need to be acrimonious; sometimes two people can try hard to make things work for a long time and never find that place they want to be. They can both be good people who just aren’t good together. No one has to be at fault, no one has to have done some huge wrong to the other.

This is us. We are working together to make this happen the right way. With our kids grown and on their own, with no significant property to split and no desire to get everything out of each other that is possible, a pro se divorce was the logical step. Low cost, cooperative and no need to involve lawyers.

I didn’t want someone fighting for me against the man I share my children with. He didn’t want someone on his end trying to stick it to me. We both want the best for each other, and we both want to be kind to the other.  We agree on things and we want to be fair to one another.

This should be simple. The most complex part should be the QDRO, a form that guides the distribution of retirement funds.

We expected this to be easy.  After all, we agree on everything, there were no complications for us.  We needed to have a second think about that expectation, it would seem.  

Our young volunteer, Aaron, was great. He checked our paperwork and helped us with a few minor questions. He was surprised and impressed with our work, commenting that it was much more complete than most people he assists. He helped us get it all ready and sent us on our way to file it.

And this is where the trouble begins again. The seventh floor of the courthouse, room 707c, to be specific. This is the office of the paralegal who handles all of the pro se petitions for the county.

The woman called us into her office and we gave her the paperwork. She looked it over and informed my husband that he is “B” and I am “A” and subsequently told us to switch seats so that I was seated at her desk and he was behind me in the extra chair.

I am “A” because I initially filled out the paperwork and listed myself as the “petitioner” and him the “respondent”, even though it was a joint petition.

Thus began the interrogation.

She stated that a number of things were missing (which really wasn’t the case) and proceeded to berate our volunteer. She got on the phone and started scolding someone, insisting that Aaron be sent up to explain his work.

At some point she figured out the work done and moved on to the next thing we were guilty of. This was about the issue of who was A and who was B. We didn’t realize the importance of that because it was a joint petition. We both thought that would mean it was interchangeable, but it’s not.

Tip: make sure you are consistent in the paperwork between both parties. Financial information must match. Names must match.

Next she looked at our financial information and demanded to know why I was not asking for maintenance (alimony). I replied that I didn’t want maintenance and she asked how long we had been married. Upon hearing that it was a 37 year marriage she insisted that we would not be able to get approved without maintenance. I am currently unemployed and have no income.

Tip: You aren’t in charge of your divorce. The judge is in charge and can insist on things like maintenance.

Next she told us we had to have the QDRO completed to file, which was completely inconsistent with what I read in my research. She then said that it would take 6 weeks to get the QDRO completed and scheduled us for our hearing on January 31st of next year.

Tip: QDROs are complex and you’re likely better off having an experienced professional complete it. I still don’t know if it has to be completed before filing, but it’s probably a good idea.

We left the office feeling confused and embarrassed. I know I felt I’d been shamed. It was a bit like a visit to the principal’s office when you’d been caught smoking in the bathroom.

Disappointed, confused and embarrassed, we quickly paid the fee to be added to the docket and left. We went from confident to shaky in no time at all.

The ride back started out quiet until we got our bearings. We were confused and now we were wondering if we could get this done at all.

Stay tuned for part 3.

An Adventure in the Wisconsin divorce Courts (Part 1 of the Saga)

Some months ago my husband and I began the process of doing a “pro se” divorce in the state of Wisconsin.

In June I filled out the initial joint petition, got it printed and signed it. I mailed it to the dear soon-to-be ex for his signature and then he delivered it to the clerk of court office with the appropriate fees to be filed and to start the process.

He was given what he described as a “court date”. The date was 12/4/17, so as the date approached I made plans to travel back to Wisconsin to complete the case.

I tried to get more information about what else I might need and what would happen on the big day, but much to my frustration, I couldn’t find anything, not even a way to verify the “court date”.

There were no phone numbers I could find that even gave me a real person to ask, and no answer to the email I sent. I couldn’t find any way to get more info so I flew to Wisconsin blind.

At this point let me interject – we had a case number but had misplaced it.

First tip: CCAP is your friend. I forgot CCAP existed for a while but I could have looked it up on CCAP and it would likely have saved a lot problems. So my first tip is this:

You can get some information about your case through CCAP: CCAP – Wisconsin Circuit Court information.

Another interjection – the soon-to-be ex, (herein after shall be called “the ex”) is not good at paperwork. And when I say “not good”, that can be interpreted as “horrible, abysmal, unable, etc.”. I’ve always been the doer of paperwork, figure-outer of stuff, and all around personal assistant to him. I was (am) not always great at that task but I manage when I can find the resources.

Unfortunately, for this particular issue, I no longer live in Wisconsin. If I had been there, I’d have marched right down to the courthouse and found the information I needed and saved us both a great deal of trouble. But since I wasn’t there, I couldn’t do that.

On the morning of the “court date” we arrived at the courthouse a bit early and expecting a smooth road, but instead we found a roadblock. A big one!

The date we had was a dismissal date!!

Thinking it was a court date we were prepared to give the paperwork to the clerk, face the judge and have the divorce decree in hand, or at least on its way to us. Now we found ourselves in the position of potentially having our case dismissed. We had the forms Completed to the best of our ability, and packed away safely in a lime green plastic accordian folder in my backpack.

Needless to say, we were surprised and upset at the turn of events. We had no idea what to do.

The kind folks at the Milwaukee Justice Center saved our bacon. We explained our situation and they helped us fill out an extension for the court date and gave us further information.

You can find info about them at: Milwaukee Justice Center

While the ex took the extension form to the clerk of court to be accepted, I took the information given me and stepped into the law library, which is located within the Justice Center, to check once again that my paperwork was done correctly.

Apparently we got lucky.

When they gave us the form to extend the deadline, they told us that it was rare to be given an extension, but they encouraged us to try. We did and the extension was granted.

We also got exceptionally lucky in another way. The Justice Center has a staff of volunteers who help people complete their divorce cases (and some other types of cases as well). Usually they are booked out for several weeks, but they had a cancellation for the next morning at 9:30. We snapped that up quickly!

With no further options, and still not clear what should happen that day we left for the day, hopeful that the next day would be smoother.

[Spoiler Alert: it didn’t.]

Day 1 of the saga ended with us disappointed but ready to restart the next day.